Mixer op je computer?
(85 reacties. Pagina 6 van 9)Moderator(s): Dré
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 18-9-2024 Berichten: 13471 | 14-4-2003 23:30 |
| <A copy of this post is also sent to the authors of the mentioned packages.> Hello, Some people that have read some of my earlier postings know I'm not one to write "one-liners". This post is certainly NOT an exception to that! About a year ago, I started to investigate the mp3 player market for I DO feel that this is where the future is at for PART of our profession. At that time my conclusion was that the interface was just piss poor; they all used the computer itself as an interface. Over the last year however, some manufacturers have come to understand this problem and have designed systems that not only provide a software package to play the mp3 (or wave) files but also incorporates a certain hardware interface. This is GOOD ;-). Because of that I decided about 2 or so weeks ago to again investigate the matter. I investigated several packages, some of which include earlier mentioned hardware interface. The packages I checked were: - BPM Studio ( www.bpmstudio.com ) * Version 3.2.5.0 - MPEG DJ (www.xaudio.de ) * Version: 2.0.21.0 (2.21) - Virtual Turntables ( carrot.prohosting.com ) - DJPlayer ( www.deejaysystem.com ) I also TRIED to try OTSJuke but unfortunately OTSJuke doesn't work under Windows 2000. Their explanation is that this is because of the restrictions (or shortcomings) of Windows 2000. Strangely enough ALL the other packages are NOT aware of this restriction! The programs with an (*) can be supplied with a hardware interface. The BPM studio package, including hardware interface costs $1,389 and for MPEG DJ (including interface) you'll have to part with some $1000,- Neither of those interfaces BTW offers a JOG button. That's very strange for every manufacturer of DJ CD-player has learned (the hard way) that users NEED a jog for fast cueing! Maybe the manufacturers of these hardware interfaces will also learn in time??? Virtual TT's was discarded because it offers NO database form whatsoever. It doesn't offer a hardware interface and finally it ALSO exhibited a HUGE problem I found in most packages; a problem I'll explain later-on. DJPlayer (a shareware/freeware program BTW) looks and feels pretty good but also offers NO database form whatsoever. It doesn't offer a hardware interface and also exhibits the earlier referenced problem. So this program too was discarded (though it looks very good, especially for the money). Since OTSJuke didn't want to install (no matter how much I tried with "appcompat.exe"), it's hard to try out this package. I personally think it's SILLY of OTSJuke not to support Windows2000 for in terms of stability and consistency, Win2000 sweeps Win9x under the carpet! So the test was more or less between BPMStudio and MPEGDJ. Installation of both packages went fine with the side remark that BPMStudio decided I needed different screen colours. I think it's blatantly RUDE of a program to decide which colours I should look at (so writers, think about THAT too). When the MPEGDJ package started, it asked if it should import the music from the harddrive. It immediately started to whine about 05-05-2000 being NOT a good date (silly isn't it for it IS a good date, millennium proof AND ALL) so I had to change the date setting JUST for this package. Importing files didn't go all that well in MPEGDJ and resulted in a corrupted database. I decided to empty the database (manually) by deleting all the entries and what do you know..... The original files (mp3 and wav) were also GONE. BIG MISTAKE IMO. If a program throws away the source files, it should at LEAST ask the user if this is OK. After a re-install of (most of) the mp3 and wave files it was FINALLY time to start mixing.... Well, didn't get around to doing much mixing on MPEGDJ because the software interface (remember I'm testing evaluation versions here so WITHOUT the hardware interface) doesn't have pitch bend buttons and I could also NOT find an option to turn them on (though screenshots from a manual CLEARLY show pitch bend buttons on the software interface). The hardware interface DOES offer pitch bend buttons BTW. | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 18-9-2024 Berichten: 13471 | 14-4-2003 23:30 |
| SO: Let's check out BPMStudio. This program looks SLEEK and wonderful (even though it insists on changing the colours of Windows). The database function however can't compare to the one MPEGDJ offers (so mobiles..... think about that!). I started to do some mixing and well.... it went OK. I did have the strangest feeling though that my mixing was off (had to use the bend buttons a lot AND I seemed to sometimes be over/undercorrecting pitch slider settings). Now some will say that this is because I'm not an experienced DJ. Might be true if you consider 10+ years of serious beatmixing (for at least 1-3 times a week) inexperienced. Anyway. I became somewhat annoyed with that and thought there was something seriously wrong with my skills. A few nights in a club here and there however got my ego back to 100% so I started to suspect the SOFTWARE package. So now I had to think up a test to see how stable the program played files (for I was at that time thinking it was some stability thing). What's the best way to check this out? Play two identical songs right? BUT, I also wanted to test for stability differences at the beginning and the end of songs. As many experienced DJ's know, not every song is stable in both BPM as well as accurate cuts throughout the song. To make sure the test file was as rock stable as possible, I took a small sample from a song (downbeat and upbeat) and looped that roughly 1000 times. This gave me a rock solid source with a speed of 134.13 BPM (with many many thanx to Sven de Smet for his wonderful beatcounter package (which BPM's an entire wav file and calculates the BPM from that; if needed with 8 digits behind the decimal members.xoom.com/CubicCarrot/ )). This song was then loaded into BPMStudio, both to the left and the right player. I then synced the two copies to see if they would "drift". They did NOT. I checked start-end, end-start, start-start, end-end and full length test. They NEVER lost sync. This is GREAT BUT... If it's not that then what the heck is wrong with me ;-) I remembered a recent "discussion" we had over at AMMDJ concerning the "discrete" steps of players. Most of us agreed that 0.1% is useable BUT some of us use the "flip/flop" action to get even smaller steps (flip/flop is when you place the pitch slider on either a Pioneer or Denon so it's pitch setting continuously flips between say 0.4 and 0.5%, thus giving us a more or less intermediate step). So here was my chance to see if the 0.1% step setting was INDEED too coarse for some OR whether it was all between our ears (for that's possible too isn't it)? So I started both players again with the earlier mentioned rock steady source and adjusted one of the players to +0.1%. They played in perfect sync for the FULL 7 minutes of this "test source". I was baffled. For a moment (during the test) I actually thought that 0.1% was THUS a small enough step (and was ready to jump on Jim for saying "0.1% is sometimes a pain" (and to slap myself on the head for falling for one of those "between the ears" thingies for I too often use the flip/flop action to keep tracks better in sync). But as the songs continued to run in PERFECT sync for several minutes I started to think: "0.1% difference means 1 full beat offset every 1000 beats". Now since the length of the song was 7 minutes, there were actually close to 1000 beats so the songs SHOULD have completely lost sync at the end. OK, a bit more drastic. I upped the pitch to 0.2% on one of the players, started the songs again and matched them. They AGAIN ran perfectly in sync for the entire song. Did the same with +0.3% pitch setting, RAN PERFECTLY in sync. Lights started to daunt on me. What if the PITCH slider does NOTHING at these small steps? I had to think of a way to see if this was true. What is the simplest test to do this? Make a recording using a continuous 1kHz sine wave and monitor the frequency of one player. Another test is to set one of the players to 0% and the other to 0.1%. You should then get a 1Hz tremolo effect. So, fired up CEP and made a 2 minute recording containing a 1kHz signal. This signal too is ROCK STEADY. I then loaded this recording into both players of BPMStudio and with both players at 0%, there was a rocksteady 1kHz tone coming out of the speakers (as should). I then increased the pitch on one of the players by 0.1% and would expect the 10Hz tremolo effect to occur. NO DEAL, didn't happen. Upped the pitch to 0.2% and NO DEAL, didn't happen. Upped the pitch to 0.3% and NO DEAL, didn't happen. At 0.4% pitch slider setting the tremolo effect DID occur, just like anticipated (be it 0.3% "too late"!!!). HEY.... HEY...... Maybe this package doesn't change pitch in steps of 0.1% and only acts like it does while in fact it was stepping in MUCH coarser steps (maybe because of software limitations?). But that's not nice is it? NO, it isn't. So I tried other programs (like the earlier mentioned freeware program), same behaviour. I could set the pitch in 0.01% increment on DJPlayer BUT it would only increase speed at +0.32%. Tested Virtual Turntables, SAME THING. This started to make me think about software writing packages that use certain modules for certain actions. Maybe all these packages use the same software modules (Xaudio.com (not to be mixed with Xaudio.de) seems to write these modules). | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 18-9-2024 Berichten: 13471 | 14-4-2003 23:30 |
| I hadn't tested MPEGDJ because said program didn't offer me pitch bend buttons BUT I was getting curious. What do you know, MPEGDJ does AS PROMISED and I DO get a 10Hz tremolo when one of the players is pitched up by 0.1%. I BTW also get some not so friendly sounding artefacts which I think can be attributed to some rounding problems finding themselves mirrored back into the audio bandwidth. BUT, MPEGDJ was the ONLY one who actually DID use 0.1% pitch increment steps (and NOT just acted like it used 0.1% pitch increment steps like the other mentioned packages). Just to be sure it was NOT a soundcard issue, I tried to route each player to a separate soundcard; one player to a SB16 and the other to an Ensonic AudioPCI card (not high tech BUT the Ensonic card offers GOOD value for money). Same problems. Changed drivers with BPMStudio (you can choose between directX, wave-out and a few others), NOTHING CHANGED. I even changed the pitch range from the standard +/-8% to +/-4% and again, NOTHING changed. SO: Are these packages great? Well, if the 0.32% pitch step problem is something that is related to Windows 2000 (or to both soundcards I use), then they STILL might be great packages (for BPMStudio does look good, cue's nicely and is pretty stable) apart from the database deficiency. HOWEVER: If the 0.32% pitch step problem ISN'T restricted to Windows 2000 users then I'd seriously advise AGAINST the use of such packages (with the exception of MpegDJ) for serious beatmixing. You can NOT mix "spot-on" with such coarse steps without seriously overusing the bend buttons. No WAY, No HOW. Explanations, comments and reactions are welcomed. Datum: 05-10-2000. | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| RonnieBStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 2-1-2003 Laatste: 29-7-2019 Berichten: 690 | 15-4-2003 00:07 |
| nice review! om deze regel moest ik ff lachen: (not high tech BUT the Ensonic card offers GOOD value for money). hoezo: "dat hoor ik vaker?" | |
| Music is what feelings sound like... | |
| SnakeEffect Guru Uit: België Sinds: 17-2-2003 Laatste: 19-4-2014 Berichten: 675 | 15-4-2003 18:26 |
RonnieB schreef: dan zullen ze het met DX8 hebben gefixt, omdat XP ook om de NT-kernel is gebouwd... (is ook geen DOS meer)Ofwel géén nieuwe versie, maar wél nieuwere versie van DirectX. | |
| DawizzeStandaard Lid Uit: België Sinds: 24-12-2002 Laatste: 9-6-2005 Berichten: 15 | 26-9-2003 00:44 |
| Gegroet, even het onderwerp terug aanhalen in het hierboven beschreven probleem zegt de persoon dat de pitch van bpm studio en derden pas werkt bij een waarde van 0.3%,dwz zet je de pitch op 0.1% dan gebeurd er niets. Ik zit met dit probleem en dit is zeer lastig daar ik geen nummers meer kan beatmatchen. Nu is mijn vraag bestaat er al een oplossig voor dit probleem? Ik gebruik bpm studio op een p3 met xp en dx 9.0. | |
| BoellieStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 13-4-2003 Laatste: 14-7-2006 Berichten: 174 | 4-11-2003 23:22 |
Snake schreef: RonnieB schreef: dan zullen ze het met DX8 hebben gefixt, omdat XP ook om de NT-kernel is gebouwd... (is ook geen DOS meer)Ofwel géén nieuwe versie, maar wél nieuwere versie van DirectX. ook niet het probleem veroorzaken mulimedia ondersteuning is sinds ME sterk verbeterd en het verkeer tussen de pci sloten (lees soundcards) is sterk verbeterd, want deze OS'en ondersteunen floatingpoint interpolatie dat een hogere samplerate mogelijk maakt en daardoor in theorie preciezer de muziek kan op bouwen. (al zul je dat voor de mp3's niet echt gebruiken) Mijn conclusie uit heb bovenstaande is dat het afwijkende pitchbereik niet aan de hardware/Operatingsoftware/drivers kan liggen maar gewoon een punt van bezuiniging is geweest van de fabriekant (het nauwkeurig versnellen of vertragen van digitale muziek is bijzonder lastig te programeren en zou dus uit prijsoverweging minder nauwkeurig kunnen worden gemaakt) Om dit te bewijzen heb ik BPM studio geinstalleerd op mijn Recording PC een: Windows 2000 Pro 2,8 Ghz P 4 Hyper-Threading Technology Asus P4P800S GeIL 1 GB DDR (Ultra Series, 2x512MB) (ja, en zo heet het merk echt  )Western Digital Caviar 160GB (WD1600JD) Asus V9560/TD Gforce FX5600 256 mb Terratec Phase 88 soundcard (ASIO 2.0 drivers) (voor de test toegevoegd soundblaster Audigy I oem Direct X 9.0) Na een aantal keer draaien van een mp3 (John Lennon - imagine 192Kbs) via de soundblaster (op DX) op verschillende pitch standen en deze geanaliseerd te hebben met een spectrumanalyser bleek andre's conclusie te kloppen (had niets anders verwacht )Maar om aan te tonen dat de drivers hier op geen invloed uit oefenen heb ik de zelfde test gedaan met de Terratec Phase 88 die op de ASIO 2.0 drivers werkt, niet geheel verassend bleeken er de zelfde resultaten uit te komen. Met deze test heb ik meteen gecontroleerd of de programmeurs van BPM studio slim geweest waren en de software zo ontwikkeld dat minitieuze pitchaanpassingen e.d. niet werken om zo processorkracht te sparen. De systeem eisen van het test systeem zijn aardig hoog en er mag dan ook aangenomen worden dat een programma als BMPstudio hierop volledig zou moeten kunnen werken. Dit bleek dus zelfs na processorprioriteit op hoog te zetten niet het geval. Hieruit kan je opmaken dat de fabrikanten een behoorlijk steekje hebben laten liggen, de sofware belooft iets dat niet waargemaakt kan worden maar bij de gebruiker wordt wel de illusie gewekt dat het werkt. Hiermee wil ik overgens niet zeggen dat BPMstudio een slecht product is alleen wil ik duidelijk maken dat ze niet iets moeten beloven in de GUI dat helemaal niet in het programma zit. correct me if im wrong... | |
| gear: A&H Xone:32, 2*Akiyama Acura, Redsound Soundbite, Stanton Finalscratch 2.0, Ableton Live 5.2, Sennheiser HD-25, Syrincs M3 | |
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 18-9-2024 Berichten: 13471 | 5-11-2003 00:24 |
| Het probleem zit hem (naar mijn mening) in de DirectX drivers. Bij Win98 was er geen enkel probleem, bij Windows 2000 wel. Er was EEN programma uit m'n test die GEEN problemen had op een Win2k systeem MAAR dat programma maakte GEEN gebruik van DirectX drivers (verwijderen van DirectX toonde dit aan, net als de reactie van het softwarebedrijf dat deze software levert/leverde). De rest van de fabrikanten doen alsof hun neus bloedt (tot de dag van vandaag). Ach... Naaierij komen we overal tegen... | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| BoellieStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 13-4-2003 Laatste: 14-7-2006 Berichten: 174 | 5-11-2003 01:59 |
| ja, helaas wel... voorbeeldje op een ander forum werd gesteld dat de cd de vinyl dj van het vinyl zou verdrijven en naar de cd zou overstappen, maar je wilt je toch niet voorstellen dat je scratch functie en cue functie geschreven is door iemand met net zo veel liefde voor muziek als dat ik heb voor tuinieren  Dit bewijst het alleen maar weer... (p.s. het was erg leuk om te testen, de winkel waar een deel van het test systeem uitkomt heeft zelfs besloten om de pakketen/controllers niet meer aan te bieden) | |
| gear: A&H Xone:32, 2*Akiyama Acura, Redsound Soundbite, Stanton Finalscratch 2.0, Ableton Live 5.2, Sennheiser HD-25, Syrincs M3 | |
| P4HStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 1-12-2003 Laatste: 15-12-2005 Berichten: 12 | 4-3-2004 19:22 |
| Ik weet het niet meer hoor! Een aantal maanden geleden heb ik een Gemini PS-626 i mixer aangeschaft op new-line. Nu ben ik aant spare voor twee cd-spelertjes, maar ik heb niet het geduld om zo lang te wachten tot ik eindelijk kan pielen aan die knopjes. Nu wil ik hem dus aansluiten op mn pc, een Pentium II 350 . Tis ni alles maar daar moet toch wel een mixer op aan te sluiten zijn??? Achter in de desktop zit 1 line in, 1 line out en een mic ingang. Zowel in de line out als in de mic zit een kabel die loopt naar het beeldscherm, hierin zitten ook de speakers verwerkt. Nou ben ik vandaag naar een zaak gegaan waar ze onder andere ook allerlei dj spul verkopen en daar vroeg ik hoe ik mijn mixer op mn pc kon aansluiten. De verkoper raadde mij twee audio snoertjes aan. Eentje in de line out en eentje in de mic (???), het rode en het zwarte stekkertje in bijvoorbeeld line 2, en bij line 3 hetzelfde. Maar geen geluid! Hij zei dat hij het ook zo deed. Ik heb op de mixer de twee kanalen ook op line gezet. Ik gebruik Traktor Dj omdat ik daar goede verhalen over had gehoord. Op dit forum heb ik ook gelezen hoe ik mn mixer via dat progamma moet aansluiten. - Externe mixer aansluiten - Deck A (Mono): geluidskaart aanklikken - Deck A: not connected - Deck B (Mono): geluidskaart aanklikken - Deck B: not connected Opmerking: Zowel bij Deck A (Mono) als bij Deck B (Mono) dezelfde geluidskaart gebruiken, alleen bij Deck A met een "0" ervoor en bij Deck B een "1" ervoor. Snappen jullie het??? Ik weet echt totaal niet wat ik er mee aanmoet! Kan iemand me helpen of teminste vertellen of het wel of niet kan! Nu kan ik vannacht weer niet slapen omdat ik nu nog niet met mn mixertje kan spelen!  | |
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